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I'll leave this right here. Discuss.

The new 2013 Subaru BRZ has received another award and continues to get global recognition, but who should get more recognition for developing the two-door sports car, Toyota or Subaru?

The new 2013 Subaru BRZ keeps getting global recognition and has been honored again with another award. This one comes from Canada as it was most recently named the Autos.ca Best Sports Car of 2013. The rear-drive sports coupe gets all the attention from Autos.ca, and the jointly produced 2013 Scion FR-S doesn’t get mentioned. The two cars of course were jointly produced by the collaboration between Subaru and Toyota.

Subaru Canada, Inc. reports that after months of deliberation and many hours behind the wheel on the road, Autos.ca has chosen the 2013 Subaru BRZ the top pick for 2013. The two-door sports coupe was chosen by writers and editors at the affiliate of autoTRADER.ca. The list of picks were vehicles from every price point, and chosen based on styling, quality, functionality, fuel-economy, driving pleasure and value for the money. Also among the considerations were class-specific aspects such as cargo capacity, comfort, luxury, handling, payload, towing, utility and ground clearance.

Only minor differences between BRZ and FR-S

So why does the Subaru BRZ get chosen over the Scion FR-S that is virtually the same car? The Subaru BRZ features a slightly different front end, some small tuning differences and option packages. The BRZ is sold around the globe, the FR-S is only sold in North America. Toyota has badged the GT 86 for sale in European and Japanese markets. Maybe it’s chosen because of its unique drivetrain that is engineered by Subaru. Toyota was in charge of its exterior design, but power comes from a Subaru-developed 2.0-liter naturally aspirated flat-four boxer engine that sits low in the chassis.

With Subaru handling most of the engineering tasks, the boxer engine sits as far back and as low as possible in the Subaru chassis to allow for an optimal weight distribution and a low center of gravity. This gives the Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S a dynamically favorable front-to-rear weight ratio of 53:47 and a low center of gravity comparable to some exotic supercars. This is what gives the rear-drive sports car the affordable fun driving pleasure that is helping it win multiple global awards and praise.

Who should get more praise, Subaru or Toyota?

"The BRZ is an instant classic," said Jonathan Yarkony, senior editor of Autos.ca. "It marks a return to driving pleasure and engagement at the core of its very purpose, and it delivers with stunning precision and capability." Shiro Ohta, president and CEO of Subaru Canada, Inc. said, "It is a privilege to be included. Subaru developed the BRZ with the fundamentals of sports car design in mind and I'm pleased that journalists and consumers alike continue to praise our rear-wheel-drive sports coupe."

The two Japanese automakers needed each other to develop the award-winning sports car, but the 2013 Subaru BRZ seems to be getting more recognition for its engineering and engine contribution. Without it, Toyota would have needed to spend millions on developing an engine that would produce similar results, and the car would cost buyers thousands more. Who should get more recognition for the sports car? Tell us what you think, Toyota or Subaru.
Who should get more praise for the BRZ/FR-S Subaru or Toyota?
 

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I think both should. If it was all Subaru it would be all wheel drive, sit higher, and look completely different. If it was all Toyota, then it would have cost $10-20K more, been a V engine instead of a boxer, and would not have handled as well. Both contributions need to be acknowledged.
 

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I agree with both. Toyota's inception of the idea, their creative spark, supported by solid Subaru design and engineering came together as one. Toyota helped Subaru realize what was possible, by forcing them to think outside of the box, i.e. RWD. (just not outside the boxer)
 

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Subaru all the way. Toyota did a good job with designing but the engine and chassis is the main selling point of this car in my eyes.
 

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Both - Toyota had the concept and the cash. Subaru had the engineering and design talent. Toyota simply was the financier and consultant on this project and deserves credit but Subaru designed and builds both models at a Subaru plant (yes even the GT86 and FR-S).
 

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This car would not be a reality w/o the boxer motor and the platform - both of which were designed by Subaru. To be fair, Toyota came up with a nice design and financed pretty much the whole thing. But to me, the scale tips to Subaru. Kudos to them for finally stepping outside of the AWD world and bringing the BRZ into their lineup.
 

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I think both should. If it was all Subaru it would be all wheel drive, sit higher, and look completely different. If it was all Toyota, then it would have cost $10-20K more, been a V engine instead of a boxer, and would not have handled as well. Both contributions need to be acknowledged.
I think this is pretty spot on. If it gets awards for looks/design it should go to Toyota and awards for performance and engineering should be all Subaru, any overall awards would make since to go to both.

A great performing car with no style doesn't get many votes, nor does a beauty queen with nothing under the hood. It took both of them to pull this off.
 

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I think both should. If it was all Subaru it would be all wheel drive, sit higher, and look completely different. If it was all Toyota, then it would have cost $10-20K more, been a V engine instead of a boxer, and would not have handled as well. Both contributions need to be acknowledged.
Actually I'm pretty sure Toyota would have thrown in a 4 cylinder from the TC.


I think it is silly when reviewers award the FRS any not the BRZ and the other way around.
 

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Who should get credit for the 'Beatles': John Lennon or Paul McCartney - or George or Ringo? In any true partnership it's not about receiving credit, it's about each partner making a significant contribution so that the whole - the outcome, in this case the BRZ/FR-S - is greater than the sum of its parts. Which, in the case of the BRZ, appears to be what occurred. I'm just happy the partnership between Subaru (FHI) and Toyota was able to develop and manufacture such a fine automobile; and at a reasonable price. When partners begin to worry about who gets credit, then partnerships tend to break up - like the Beatles in 1970 . . . and then the music stops.
 

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Who should get credit for the 'Beatles': John Lennon or Paul McCartney - or George or Ringo? In any true partnership it's not about receiving credit, it's about each partner making a significant contribution so that the whole - the outcome, in this case the BRZ/FR-S - is greater than the sum of its parts. Which, in the case of the BRZ, appears to be what occurred. I'm just happy the partnership between Subaru (FHI) and Toyota was able to develop and manufacture such a fine automobile; and at a reasonable price. When partners begin to worry about who gets credit, then partnerships tend to break up - like the Beatles in 1970 . . . and then the music stops.
Very well said....the value is that its an accomplishment that neither would likely have arrived at on their own
 

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Don't know who should get more praise, but whomever was responsible for developing the idle MAP should fall on his sword. I've tuned multiple EECU's in the past and have done a better job with fewer resources then Sub/Toyo have at their disposal.
 

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Troll thread?

Seriously though, Toyota had the initial concept, so they get credit for that, but that's where it ends. Key engineers from both manufacturers were given freedom to design the car the way they believe it should be, and even after running into deadlines and design issues, upper management said "lets do it right, take the time you need".

Here's a couple quotes from Moto-P from FT86club, who has close ties to the factory and is very well informed, also personally knows many members of "team 86".
Moto-P said:
TOYOTA - SUBARU Development "Team 86" summary...
A question brought up in Club4AG forums, I will share here on FT86Club as I thought it was interesting to describe to everyone who have one thought or another about WHo did what in the collaborative prodess of Subaru and Toyota.

originally posted by Panda_AE86 »
According to Wikipedia (don't quote me on this and should not allow Wikipedia as facts), Toyota have 16.X% hold on HFI. It may be enough to have majority control over Subaru. So to sum it up (all pure speculation ) it may/could be Subaru engineers, Toyota's $. I would speculate Toyota gets the most profit on both brand sales.
Yes, FHI is now 27% owned by Toyota, on paper...one can only imagine what is actual since they are both, complex multi-structured corporations, with many subsidiaries and even shared interest ownerships of various suppliers and sub-divisions.

As for the collaboration, it was Mr.Tada, under guidance of President A. Toyoda of Toyota, who was assigned to gather a special design task force from both Subaru and Toyota in a singular think tank.
Originally a singular Toyota concept, it was later assigned to use resources of Subaru which has had production facilities available, and to utilize the spare capacities of the Subaru plants, parts suppliers, etc. Collaborations also involve teams from Toyota Europe, Aisin, various tire makes, and Denso as well as dozens of others.
Subaru engineers and execs were at first very skeptical about the concept, and were reluctant to develop a 2wd car with no AWD option, nor an NA based flat four.
But after spending several months talking and playing with a RWD concept mule car, sharing seat time in cars, drivers and passengers, Subaru and Toyota engineers sitting side by side, they firmly committed.

By the time full development started, they were very cohesive with everyone, and the team worked in unison to the end to follow the goals and guidelines set in the initial concept focus.
These are the men and women who are called the TEAM 86, chosen to not be either Toyota or Subaru, but a singular entity who were simply at the task of using resources available in either, and crating something closest fitting to the goal of making the FT86 siblings.

Key developers on the "TEAM 86" project:
T. Tada - chief engineer Toyota
F. Ito - Product Planning 86 Project Subaru
A. Takada - Product Planning/Marketing Division, Toyota
T. Furukawa - Exterior Design, Toyota Design Group
K. Kido - Exterior Design/Toyota Creative Studio
T. Noda - Body/Product Management - Subaru
M.Toyama - Group Manager, Design Toyota
Y. Hayashi - Interior Design, Toyota Design Group
H. Kishi - Engine Management Systems R&D 86 Project Subaru
T. Okamoto - New Engine Development - Toyota Advanced Engine Design
M. Otani - Engine Development Toyota
K. Watanabe - Engine Development - Toyota
K. Nakamura - Product Management - Engine Group Toyota
T. Ishikawa - Manual Transmission Development Aisin AI
T. Kaino - Manual Transmission Development
H. Tomomatsu - 6 sp Automatic Development, Toyota
M. Takagi - Advanced Testing Driver - Toyota
Y. Sasaki - Chassis Development
A. Osaka - Chief Driving Test Engineer
H. Kishi - Aftermarket Product Planning Division, Sport Vehicle Management
K. Okino - Aftermarket Product Division, Toyota

And many more working under thier guideance, and contributing from both ends of the firms involved, and outside 3rd party aftermarket, suppliers, producers, and outfitters as well as testing facilities, racing teams, benchmarking firms, and research task-forces especially setup under TEAM 86.

So in actuality, the only SUBARU-TOYOTA battle is merely in the minds of the uninformed fan-base, customers, and loyal egos of the folks who covet the badge more than the car?
Because internally, it is ONE and focused only to bring you the best compact sports car for the money, deeply thought out and catering sharply to driving enthusiasts of deep appreciation in vehicle dynamics.

That is what TEAM 86 is about.

And FRS/BRZ, GT86, and Toyota 86 are all siblings made of the same bloodline.
I can elaborate for days on this, but I will stop here to let you visualize from this, what this looked like on the inside.
Also:

Moto-P said:
If you think like this, a car with this much integrity would never be born. This was a collaboration of both firms, sending their most passionate, and capable engineers into a separate and singular engineering program, not belonging to one or the other at any given time, but only belonging to the TEAM86.

The names I posted without origins of which firm is my lack of not being completely inside knowing them all in person. I don't know for sure at this time which company they originated. I have met Mr.Okino and he is from Toyota.

To us though, this is not important at this time, but only that they were there to do their share of taking a very key role in design of the FT86 siblings, for Toyota and Subaru both, a single product.
Ideas from both side's engineers and designers meshed and collaborated on the entire car.

Take for example the flat four engine. It is a Subaru engineered base design, but LFA's technicians, Aisin's drivetrain experts, 3rd party inputs, and Toyota's durability and testing as well as electronics experts, metallurgy experts, acoustic engineers, 3rd party test engineers, and drivers, all put unimaginable time and resources. This is not a case where Subaru engine was simply fitted with Toyota injection. No, it is MUCH more than that. And the same goes for almost every component on this car.

You will probably see a lot of similar components based on Subaru hardware, and yes it is manufactured by majority of the components based on their designs and suppliers, but this is because the manufacturing was assigned to FHI branch of the TEAM86.
It does go without saying though, that every component was reviewed, modified, re-engineered, and carefully pieced together so that FHI can push them out of the factory reliably, and quickly, and with as much care and integration that can afford the best balance of cost and performance, and to ensure that the spirit and goals were met on the passion of the vehicle, to retain it's very soul.
None of this is purely Subaru or Toyota. It's the singular entity of Team86, the best from both.

quik1987 said:
I still think Subaru gets under credited
If you think the Subaru side is under-credited, I'll say otherwise. The initial designation by Toyota's marketing branch called for the 4U-GSE engine designation, but they have since replaced this with the FA20 name for BOTH Toyota and Subaru product. This, to give Subaru the credit for it's heritage and long-dedication to the flat-four development on other cars up to now. The FA20 is nothing like the previous long-stroking, boost capable engine that was the EJ or even the FB, but something entirely different other than it being laid out in a Subaru configuration. But with respect to the engineering know, and accommodating every previously inconceivable and traditionally unthinkable requests and goals Mr.Tada set on this engine, and the massive allocations and resources put into revisions on this to match the goals from every firm that collaborated, by complete internal design make-over, the engine is truly dedicated to this car, by everyone at Team 86 who worked on the FA20, folks at FHI should be extremely proud to take it further in development than any previous Subaru engine...

If Toyota or Subaru's normal wallet-checking, financiers, and other commercial or marketing motives had their way in any way, the even simple things like mirrors on the door would have come from a Camry or a Impreza, but this isn't the case. Every minute detail was asked to be original, and that of TEAM86 creation. Impossible was not the excuse for Tada-san and his team. They dug where no one had dug within both firms to come up with creative ideas and revolutionary skills...

As time goes and if I ever have a chance to meet them all, I'll revise and correct the associations for their names.
 

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Great post by Wheelhaus. To me it's starting to sound like at first Toyota was the driving force while Subaru was uncertain, which than became a full collaborative effort, with both companies giving their full efforts. Not saying Toyota deserves more credit. I just found it interesting how things came about.
 

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Lol, thanks guys! Sometimes I forget that a lot of people didn't follow the development as closely as others! We should all be proud that we're part of the modern revival of the fundamental sports car. I'm excited to see where this all goes over the coming years, it's already boosting the sub-car-culture of real pure driving enthusiasts, not just "car guys".
 
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